Conversation with #agm at 25.11.2012 20:42:23 on u60@irc.cacert.org (irc)
(20:42:23) #agm: Das Thema für #agm ist: CAcert Incorporated - Annual General Meeting - Use FirstnameLastname as your nickname - http://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/Next - Also join #vote
(20:47:12) Sie heißen jetzt UlrichSchroeter
(21:05:07) dirk heißt jetzt dirkastrath
(21:17:43) BenediktHeintel [rats@ip-5-146-54-55.unitymediagroup.de] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:22:47) jandd [jan@pachesi.gnuviech-server.de] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:22:53) jandd heißt jetzt JanDittberner
(21:23:36) GolfRomeo heißt jetzt GuillaumeRomagny
(21:23:55) magu heißt jetzt Martin
(21:24:00) Martin heißt jetzt MartinGummi
(21:29:50) BennyBaumann hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Lost terminal).
(21:40:56) alex [yaaic@ip-2-206-0-102.web.vodafone.de] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:41:51) alexb [alex@assurer.cacert.org] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:45:00) rm heißt jetzt rm__
(21:45:06) rm__ heißt jetzt rm
(21:45:08) WernerDworak [Werner@dsl60b6048.sdtnet.de] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:45:35) PiersLauder [PiersLaude@ppp121-44-132-17.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:46:11) #agm: Modus (+oo PiersLauder WernerDworak) von MarioLipinski
(21:47:58) rm heißt jetzt ReinhardMutz
(21:48:02) NEOatNHNG [neo@f053214244.adsl.alicedsl.de] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:48:22) #agm: Modus (+o NEOatNHNG) von MarioLipinski
(21:48:24) NEOatNHNG heißt jetzt MichaelTaenzer
(21:48:40) MichaelTaenzer: Hi guys
(21:50:06) alex: Hallo
(21:50:09) alexb: hallo
(21:50:53) WernerDworak: Alex^2 bitt voller Name
(21:50:56) aphexer [aphexer@pec.ulyssis.student.kuleuven.be] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:51:00) wytze [wytze@deboca.xs4all.nl] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:51:02) aphexer heißt jetzt AlexanderPrinsier
(21:51:14) wytze heißt jetzt WytzevanderRaay
(21:51:45) alexb: das geht nicht
(21:52:01) alexb: weil: unique name geht nur
(21:52:15) WernerDworak: Thenyou cannot take part here, at meast not vote
(21:52:30) alex heißt jetzt AlexanderBahlo2
(21:52:39) alexb heißt jetzt AlexanderBahlo
(21:52:47) WernerDworak: Fine!
(21:52:50) AlexanderBahlo: that MUST be possible!
(21:53:12) AlexanderBahlo: because i do not know whether i can be alexanderbahlo or alexanderbahlo2
(21:53:36) WernerDworak: One is sufficient
(21:53:53) TomasTrnka [TooTea@ip4-46-39-163-183.cust.nbox.cz] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:53:54) WernerDworak: Only one can vote anyway
(21:54:06) AlexanderBahlo: that is true
(21:54:13) #agm: Modus (+o TomasTrnka) von MarioLipinski
(21:54:25) AlexanderBahlo: but i dont know which one ;)
(21:54:32) MartinGummi: hello
(21:54:57) TomasTrnka: hi
(21:56:10) WernerDworak: Mario, who get #o and who not?
(21:57:09) MarioLipinski: from my side right now, only current comittee members get +o and you guys should be able to control the rest yourselves
(21:57:15) #agm: Modus (+o iang) von MarioLipinski
(21:59:04) MichaelTaenzer: MarioLipinski: you are handling the votebot?
(21:59:24) alex [yaaic@ip-2-206-0-102.web.vodafone.de] hat den Raum betreten.
(21:59:27) AlexanderBahlo hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Wo sind denn die, die nicht da sind?).
(21:59:49) TomasTrnka: MichaelTaenzer: I am
(22:00:00) alexb [alex@assurer.cacert.org] hat den Raum betreten.
(22:00:11) MichaelTaenzer: ah ok thanks
(22:00:12) MarioLipinski: MichaelTaenzer, I got the instance running that is currently on here. No plans on doing anything more.
(22:00:31) alexb hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Remote host closed the connection).
(22:00:54) PiersLauder: Hullo everyone
(22:01:05) bdmc heißt jetzt BrianMcCullough
(22:01:16) PiersLauder: Do we have enough members present to start the AGM?
(22:01:37) alex2 heißt jetzt AlexanderBahlo
(22:01:37) BenBE heißt jetzt BennyBaumann
(22:02:51) PiersLauder: Ok, I'd like to welcome everyone to this AGM for 2011-2012
(22:02:59) TomasTrnka: moment please, checking membership status of everyone
(22:03:10) PiersLauder: Ist item on the agenda - who will take the minutes for this meeting?
(22:03:18) PiersLauder: (ok, waiting)
(22:04:00) TomasTrnka: everyone present has a valid membership, carry on
(22:04:26) #agm: Modus (+o VoteBot) von MarioLipinski
(22:04:36) bdmc heißt jetzt BrianMcCullough
(22:05:39) PiersLauder: Ok, back to 1st item - who will take the minutes?
(22:07:09) WernerDworak: I can do the minutes
(22:07:23) PiersLauder: Thanks Werner!
(22:07:41) PiersLauder: Item 1.2 "Identification of members with voting rights"
(22:08:24) #agm: Modus (+o PeterYuill) von MarioLipinski
(22:09:02) TomasTrnka: everyone present has a right to vote
(22:09:16) TomasTrnka: IanGrigg holds proxy for JefferyFrederick
(22:09:16) PiersLauder: Thanks Tomas
(22:09:30) PiersLauder: Item 1.3 - "Identify proxy votes"
(22:09:39) TomasTrnka: sorry, too early
(22:09:45) MarcusMaengel: I have a proxy for Fabian Knopf
(22:09:46) TomasTrnka: IanGrigg holds proxy for JefferyFrederick
(22:09:56) PiersLauder: Any other proxy votes present?
(22:10:07) iang: do we need to change our name to full name?  I forgot how to do that
(22:10:11) TomasTrnka: MarcusMängel holds proxy for FabianKnopf
(22:10:26) TomasTrnka: iang: /nick FirstnameLastname, but we know who you are
(22:10:41) iang heißt jetzt IanGrigg
(22:11:22) PiersLauder: So that's three proxies?
(22:11:32) TomasTrnka: Two
(22:11:45) PiersLauder: Two it is, sorry
(22:12:05) PiersLauder: Next item 1.4 "Identification and acceptance of new members"
(22:12:39) #agm: Modus (-o PeterYuill) von MarioLipinski
(22:13:10) PiersLauder: (Is this where we list new members accepted this year?)
(22:13:31) PiersLauder: Tomas?
(22:13:44) TomasTrnka: This would be to accept pending membership applications I think
(22:13:45) IanGrigg: no, where we accept new members - but typically already done in board
(22:13:50) TomasTrnka: We have none currently
(22:14:01) PiersLauder: Ok, moving on
(22:14:36) PiersLauder: Item 1.5 "Urgent Business (Acceptance of addtl. resolution into the agenda)"
(22:15:33) PiersLauder: Any new agenda items proposed?
(22:15:34) IanGrigg: nothing has been proposed, has it Tomas?
(22:15:49) TomasTrnka: no proposals received by Secretary
(22:16:10) PiersLauder: Good
(22:16:16) TomasTrnka: I'm not sure whether there can be a proposal from the floor, but it doesn't look like there are any
(22:16:40) MichaelTaenzer: i propose to move on ;-)
(22:16:51) PiersLauder: The next item is 2.1 Ratification of the minutes for the Annual General Meeting 2011-11-27
(22:17:18) BennyBaumann: Link?
(22:17:37) BenediktHeintel: https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/AGM20111127#Minutes
(22:17:52) PiersLauder: I propose that we vote to accept those minutes
(22:18:11) u60: how to vote ?
(22:18:13) TomasTrnka: Let's fix it at the current revision 7 : https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/AGM20111127?action=recall&rev=7
(22:18:17) WernerDworak: I second
(22:18:35) TomasTrnka: Rules for voting:
(22:18:56) TomasTrnka: in #vote you can vote "aye"  or "yes" (if you agree) and "naye" or "no" (if you do not agree). These votes are counted. However, you can also vote "abstain". If you vote "abstain" your vote will not be counted.
(22:19:23) TomasTrnka: If you are the proxy for another member you can vote by typing: "proxy membername aye/naye/abstain"
(22:19:33) dirkastrath: @tomas my last vote couns .. correct?
(22:19:41) TomasTrnka: dirkastrath: correct
(22:19:46) u60: doesn't have the vote to be send in channel vote ?
(22:20:03) MarioLipinski: yes, as written by Tomas
(22:20:27) VoteBot: TomasTrnka has started a vote on: Accept minutes of AGM 2011-11-27
(22:20:27) ***VoteBot please vote on: Accept minutes of AGM 2011-11-27
(22:21:57) ***VoteBot Voting on "Accept minutes of AGM 2011-11-27" will end in 30 seconds!
(22:22:16) rm_ heißt jetzt ReinhardMutz
(22:22:18) PiersLauder: (does the VoteBot let us know when voting is complete?)
(22:22:28) TomasTrnka: PiersLauder: It will
(22:22:32) MarioLipinski: yes, either by quitting or with the results
(22:22:39) PiersLauder: :-)
(22:22:52) ***VoteBot has totaled the results for "Accept minutes of AGM 2011-11-27"
(22:22:52) ***VoteBot ---        AYE:     19
(22:22:54) ***VoteBot ---        NAYE:    0
(22:22:54) ***VoteBot ---        ABSTAIN: 0
(22:23:04) PiersLauder: The motion is carried
(22:23:16) PiersLauder: Next item
(22:23:30) PiersLauder: 3.1 "Presentation of Executive Report"
(22:23:58) PiersLauder: URl: https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/BoardReport/2012
(22:24:46) IanGrigg: Approval is here: https://community.cacert.org/board/motions.php?motion=m20121121.1
(22:25:15) PiersLauder: Next, 3.2 "Presentation of Financial Report"
(22:25:55) PiersLauder: I don't have a URL for this - can someone show it?
(22:26:33) TomasTrnka: https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/FinancialReport/2012
(22:26:41) IanGrigg: (note, I updated the Approval comment on the top of Board Report.)
(22:26:50) TomasTrnka: thanks Ian
(22:26:57) BennyBaumann: What's the gist of it?
(22:27:20) IanGrigg: hmm good question
(22:27:39) MarioLipinski: Are questions allowed regarding the financial report?
(22:27:56) WytzevanderRaay: The financial report does not contain any specification of the income and expenses -- why not??
(22:28:07) MichaelTaenzer: Less expenditures due to hosting cuts -> more money
(22:28:37) WytzevanderRaay: Why is that not shown in the financial report?
(22:28:52) MarioLipinski: How do you explain the decrease of income?
(22:28:53) MichaelTaenzer: WytzevanderRaay: Jeffrey is currently unavailable
(22:28:59) IanGrigg: MarioLipinski:  sure - discussion is expected
(22:29:08) MichaelTaenzer: due to family issues
(22:30:20) u60: Inc rules 25.2.d referes to Ass.Act 47 (2) The financial statements must give a true and fair view of the association's affairs and
(22:30:20) u60: must deal with such matters as are prescribed by the regulations.
(22:30:41) u60: do you think this is covered by current finance report ?
(22:31:20) MarioLipinski: Do the expenses in the report represent the costs for a whole year or are there any rollovers? Are the hosting costs for 12 months represented in the number for the presented financial year?
(22:31:20) MichaelTaenzer: yes, the regulations are rather lax
(22:31:46) AlexanderPrinsier: the financial report is also a report for the members
(22:31:53) WytzevanderRaay: Ulrich: maybe the report conforms to the regulations, but it does not give any insight in CAcert's operations -- which I think the members have a right to know
(22:32:26) u60: @Wytze, that is what I want to get answered
(22:32:51) BenediktHeintel: I agree on Ulrich's and Wytze's opinion and request an update from Jeffrey
(22:33:17) PiersLauder: Given the unfortunate constraints on the treasurer's availability, this is all the financial report we are going to get, unless some other member volunteers to enhance the report later
(22:33:24) u60: at least an overview as in Finance report 1 year ago
(22:33:35) u60: https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/FinancialReport/2011
(22:33:38) WernerDworak: One probmen is, Jeff has famiky problems and nearly no time for CAcert
(22:33:39) IanGrigg: uli: link?
(22:33:40) BenediktHeintel: I also don't understand the account numbers used and request a clearance of the account framework used
(22:34:16) MarioLipinski: the board is not only jeffrey. If someone is unavailable, others members have to back up.
(22:35:23) WernerDworak: Mari true. But this requires time and a minimum cooperation from Jeff
(22:35:39) IanGrigg: this is something we want to bring to the attention of the next board - that we lack (in use) a decent accounting system that allows anyone to dive in and do this
(22:35:51) kevin heißt jetzt KevinDawson
(22:36:15) IanGrigg: if there are shortfalls, it would be useful to get a list of specific faults
(22:36:34) MichaelTaenzer: we did a discussion about it on last board meeting and propose to have a small team of people
(22:37:16) MichaelTaenzer: IanGrigg: mainly a more detailed view, ordered by topic, not account
(22:37:34) IanGrigg: and as this is a major deliverable we would to decide whether to accept, reject or otherwise
(22:37:41) MichaelTaenzer: e.g. donations, password resets, hosting, other expenses
(22:38:10) MarioLipinski: Another point in the financial report: it lists an account "Credit Union Aust", First: How current are the numbers? Second: Why does CAcert operate this account, as there has been no change in balance since years?
(22:38:32) u60: Cost of Sales -> Internet hosting services, Others ?
(22:38:48) MarioLipinski: IanGrigg, I might accept as deliverable to OFT, but not to the members.
(22:39:16) IanGrigg: MichaelTaenzer: do you mean, a view detailed as per previous year, 2011 ?
(22:39:44) MichaelTaenzer: UlrichSchroeter: also travel costs etc
(22:40:00) u60: yes, 
(22:40:13) MarioLipinski: To add to unknown accounts: What about the Paymate account paymate@cacert.org, wo does control it and why is it still hold? Imho it is no longer used.
(22:40:17) u60: at least by topics
(22:40:21) WytzevanderRaay: The 2011 detail was fine in  my opinion
(22:40:44) MichaelTaenzer: WytzevanderRaay: agree
(22:40:57) u60: but the 2012 finance report lists nothing :-(
(22:41:42) MarioLipinski: agreed.
(22:42:43) WernerDworak: I suggest to moce, the financial report is ok for autorieies. But ..
(22:42:54) IanGrigg: does anyone disagree with MarioLipinski point that it could be accepted for delivery to OFT?
(22:43:09) WernerDworak: for thr mrmbt a second report for the members shall be created
(22:43:36) u60:  I propose that we vote to reject the finance report as currently listed under https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/FinancialReport/2012
(22:43:53) IanGrigg: KevinDawson: does that cause an issue?  Can the OFT accept the report numbers as shown even if the members demand more?
(22:44:19) WernerDworak: Uli, no. We should split OFT and members
(22:44:21) KevinDawson: Was just about to go and look whether the relevant word was "present" or "accept".
(22:44:22) MarioLipinski: btw. I do not see a point on the agenda that the membership has to accept the financial report. But imho an agm is required to have a point to accept the report delivered to oft.
(22:45:32) TomasTrnka: The AGM has to "receive and consider" the report
(22:45:41) TomasTrnka: That IMHO means to accept it
(22:45:42) KevinDawson: Mario: the requirement is in the Act.
(22:46:14) BrianMcCullough: Does the OFT only require a Balance Sheet?
(22:46:14) MarioLipinski: Our association rules say the following: "to receive and consider the statement which is required to be
(22:46:14) MarioLipinski: submitted to members under section 44 for a tier 1
(22:46:14) MarioLipinski: association -or- section 48 for a tier 2 association of the Act"
(22:46:26) BennyBaumann: Please split those two points: Acceptance for Delivery to OFT and Addendum for Requests through members.
(22:46:36) PiersLauder: I propose the motion: "Approve the Financial Report for presentation to the OFT"
(22:46:37) BennyBaumann: And vote on both-.
(22:46:58) TomasTrnka: As far as the wording of the agenda item goes, it's just copied over from last year…
(22:47:14) WytzevanderRaay: Seconding BennyBaumann's proposal
(22:47:39) GuillaumeRomagny: seconding BennyBaumann
(22:48:52) IanGrigg: is there a motion on the table?
(22:49:12) PiersLauder: BennyBaumann: please propose your first motion
(22:49:50) BennyBaumann: PiersLauder: The first part equals your proposed motion.
(22:50:11) PiersLauder: Then the first motion is "Approve the Financial Report for presentation to the OFT"
(22:50:17) TomasTrnka: PiersLauder: seconded
(22:50:29) VoteBot: TomasTrnka has started a vote on: Approve the Financial Report for presentation to the OFT
(22:50:29) ***VoteBot please vote on: Approve the Financial Report for presentation to the OFT
(22:50:29) GuillaumeRomagny: PiersLauder: seconded
(22:51:31) KevinDawson: Just while the voting is going on: I've found the relevant words.
(22:51:46) KevinDawson: Sections 47 and 48 of the Act:
(22:51:59) ***VoteBot Voting on "Approve the Financial Report for presentation to the OFT" will end in 30 seconds!
(22:52:12) KevinDawson: (1) As soon as practicable after the end of each financial year, the
(22:52:13) KevinDawson: committee of a Tier 2 association must cause financial statements for
(22:52:13) KevinDawson: that year to be prepared, in accordance with this section, in relation to
(22:52:13) KevinDawson: the association’s financial affairs (including its affairs as trustee of any
(22:52:13) KevinDawson:  trust).
(22:52:30) KevinDawson: 47 (2) The financial statements must give a true and fair view of the
(22:52:31) KevinDawson: association’s affairs and must deal with such matters as are prescribed
(22:52:31) KevinDawson:  by the regulations.
(22:52:43) KevinDawson: 48 At each annual general meeting of a Tier 2 association, the association’s
(22:52:44) KevinDawson: committee must cause the association’s financial statements for the
(22:52:44) KevinDawson: previous financial year to be submitted to the meeting.
(22:52:49) KevinDawson: End.
(22:52:57) ***VoteBot has totaled the results for "Approve the Financial Report for presentation to the OFT"
(22:52:58) ***VoteBot ---        AYE:     19
(22:52:58) ***VoteBot ---        NAYE:    2
(22:53:01) ***VoteBot ---        ABSTAIN: 1
(22:53:11) PiersLauder: The motion is carried
(22:53:22) IanGrigg: hmmm… I should have Abstained my proxy vote there perhaps.  Never mind :)
(22:53:23) PiersLauder: BennyBaumann: please propose your second motion
(22:53:33) BennyBaumann: The second motion is: Create a list of things through the members at the meeting listing points that need further clarification or more detail.
(22:54:16) WytzevanderRaay: Can we make that motion a little bit more concise?
(22:54:17) GuillaumeRomagny: BennyBaumann : "highly" seconded
(22:54:57) BennyBaumann: The additional parts should be presented to the members within 1-2 months.
(22:55:02) IanGrigg: i don't understand it - who is to create the list?  If it is the members here then that could be done in discussion?
(22:55:09) WytzevanderRaay: Like: Request the board to specify the income and expense listed in the financial report 2011-2012 to the same amount of detail as in the 2010-2011 report.
(22:55:12) BennyBaumann: WytzevanderRaay: What'd you suggest as ording?
(22:55:38) GuillaumeRomagny: I believe there is no misdoing, but we need the details of expenses/incomes of each account
(22:55:40) MarioLipinski: I would propose that the membership rejects the financial report delivered during the AGM and asks for a more detailed report, as the one for the previeous year, to be delivered within 6 weeks.
(22:56:06) u60: second Mario
(22:56:22) AlexanderBahlo: Mario seconded
(22:56:23) IanGrigg: As a practical matter - bear in mind that the work to implement this will fall on the new board
(22:56:35) TomasTrnka: MarioLipinski: Note that this is a task for the new Board and there's going to be some delay due to handovers
(22:56:37) WytzevanderRaay: Mario seconded
(22:56:47) IanGrigg: so putting a fast deadline on it might be hard
(22:56:51) MarioLipinski: I think 6 weeks should be sufficient.
(22:57:01) GuillaumeRomagny: at last, Mario seconded
(22:57:25) AlexanderBahlo: Is it or can it be forced to be done by old board. 
(22:57:47) TomasTrnka: AlexanderBahlo: The old board doesn't exist anymore
(22:58:01) BenediktHeintel: IanGrigg, why should this task done by the new board? It falls in the liability of the old one
(22:58:02) IanGrigg: and isn't empowered to access the records, can only hand them over
(22:58:03) TomasTrnka: It's dissolved right at the AGM
(22:58:47) AlexanderPrinsier: not necessarily dissolved :)
(22:59:21) AlexanderBahlo: If we do say that the old board still has to do some work left? There is a word for that i forgot in english
(22:59:31) GuillaumeRomagny: The liability goes back to the membership (I guess)
(23:00:04) GuillaumeRomagny: AlexanderBahlo : pending duties ?
(23:00:12) TomasTrnka: Rule 15 (3): Each member of the committee is, subject to these rules, to hold office until the conclusion of the annual general meeting following the date of the member's election, but is eligible for re-election.
(23:00:24) WytzevanderRaay: Let's not make this too complicated. From my experience this should be a quick and simple task for whoever is charged with it -- if the total of some numbers is known, the constituing numbers must also be known.
(23:00:34) MarioLipinski: We could adjourn the AGM...
(23:01:03) MarioLipinski: but agree with Wytze.
(23:01:43) GuillaumeRomagny:  MarioLipinski : Alas... but ok
(23:01:52) TomasTrnka: However, currently we have two proposals, both duly seconded… Do we really want to vote on both?
(23:01:53) BenediktHeintel: agree with Wytze but also see the problems with the AGM in 3 weeks
(23:02:31) WytzevanderRaay: Let's vote on MarioLipinski's motion
(23:02:43) WernerDworak: Just orient on the last report. Period
(23:02:54) AlexanderBahlo: If the constituting numbers are available, yes.
(23:03:32) AlexanderPrinsier: you can re-create the report based on the account transactions (paypal, bank, ...) about 8 hours of work (my experience :))
(23:03:49) IanGrigg: Is Mario's proposal the one people want to proceed with?
(23:03:51) PiersLauder: How about a motion "That the members reject the Financial Report as presented, and request the incoming treasurer to present a more complete report as soon as possible"
(23:04:08) AlexanderBahlo: Bad is if its only available thru one member an he is not supporting.
(23:04:12) MarioLipinski: I think the motion is already on the table...
(23:04:18) BenediktHeintel: I'd propose to name someone here and now
(23:04:26) IanGrigg: that sounds reasonable.
(23:04:32) AlexanderBahlo: "As soon as possible" shall be when?
(23:05:01) AlexanderBahlo: Will there be a socond meeting or is time tilö next agm?
(23:05:04) MarioLipinski: I move(ed) that the membership rejects the financial report delivered during the AGM and asks for a more detailed report, as the one for the previeous year, to be delivered within 6 weeks.
(23:05:05) BrianMcCullough: I see a proposal, but not a motion.
(23:05:16) TomasTrnka: BennyBaumann's proposal was the first, so IMHO it's either he retracts it or we have to vote it through
(23:05:21) IanGrigg: Is there to be an SGM, or is presentation to the members list OK?
(23:05:52) MarioLipinski: Imho, delivery would be sufficient. If there is something to discuss, calling a SGM may be appropriate.
(23:05:56) WytzevanderRaay: Let's keep things *simple* -- no SGM, but simply present to the members list
(23:06:10) WernerDworak: I think the last is suficcient
(23:06:32) BennyBaumann: TomasTrnka: Retracting mine.
(23:06:33) AlexanderBahlo: Ok
(23:06:33) WernerDworak: I second Mario
(23:06:34) dirkastrath: @wytze ... if the report is not okay, a SGM can be called ...
(23:06:37) GuillaumeRomagny: That the members reject the Financial Report as presented but hold liability on the financial issues, and request the current President and Treasurer & incoming treasurer to present a more complete report as soon as possible
(23:06:37) BennyBaumann: acking MarioLipinski 
(23:07:21) WytzevanderRaay: @dirkastrath: sure!
(23:07:24) AlexanderBahlo: "Asap" is not sufficient.
(23:07:25) BennyBaumann: Plz ASAP --> 6 weeks
(23:07:47) AlexanderBahlo: Benny second
(23:07:54) u60: That the members reject the Financial Report as presented but hold liability on the financial issues, and request the current President and Treasurer & incoming treasurer to present a more complete report within the next 6 weeks
(23:07:59) WernerDworak: Benny second
(23:08:12) BennyBaumann: UlrichSchroeter: seconded
(23:08:13) BenediktHeintel: second Ulrich
(23:08:18) PiersLauder: (Note that 6 weeks includes christmas and new year holiday period)
(23:08:37) BennyBaumann: That's a nice present to the community.
(23:08:45) u60: you can make in 8 hours ... so tommorow or upto 6 weeks
(23:09:03) IanGrigg: we have too many motions and too many seconds - we would have to vote for them all and that might cause confusion
(23:09:12) BrianMcCullough: Agreed
(23:09:28) GuillaumeRomagny: IanGrigg : Agreed :)
(23:09:55) IanGrigg: also bear in mind that while Jeffery might help … he might be unavailable.  Which means that the new Treasurer will have a more difficult task.
(23:10:04) MarioLipinski: I would retract mine in favor of Ulrich.
(23:10:05) u60: my motion was GR's motion with the asap -> 6 weeks correction
(23:10:08) WernerDworak: I suggest, Piers select the best motion or a good combination and thern we vote on Piers
(23:10:13) IanGrigg: And, we don't want to scare him away before he accepts the task :)
(23:10:13) BennyBaumann: I'd suggest we vote on UlrichSchroeter 's motion and the other's retract theirs.
(23:11:23) BrianMcCullough: Or go back to the original, whichever it was, and apply all the amendments.
(23:11:25) WernerDworak: I retact all other seconds and secont Uli
(23:11:45) GuillaumeRomagny: That the members reject the Financial Report as presented but hold liability on the financial issues, and request the current President and Treasurer & incoming treasurer to present a more complete report within the next 6 weeks, if not an SGM will be called on Feb 2013
(23:11:51) GuillaumeRomagny: (sorry)
(23:12:07) BennyBaumann: LOL
(23:12:08) IanGrigg: idk what "hold liability" means
(23:12:42) GuillaumeRomagny: IanGrigg : whatever happens, the members are liable of the financial issues (up to 10 USD/year)
(23:13:06) BenediktHeintel: agree!
(23:13:18) BennyBaumann: Might get expensive :P
(23:13:19) TomasTrnka: GuillaumeRomagny: And why is that in the motion?
(23:13:19) IanGrigg: That, the members reject the Financial Report and request that the Board prepare it to the standard of the previous year, and that they request the assistance of retiring members in doing so?
(23:13:22) BennyBaumann: SCNR
(23:13:38) AlexanderBahlo: Why? When the board cannot present proper income/expenses dtate
(23:13:53) AlexanderBahlo: Statements...
(23:13:54) IanGrigg: ok, so you are referring to the liability of financial members.  So, what does "hold" mean?
(23:14:03) GuillaumeRomagny: IanGrigg : good motion
(23:14:22) MarioLipinski: i am missing a deadline.
(23:14:50) IanGrigg: add, "as their priority task." ?
(23:15:16) IanGrigg: If I was on the new board, i'd defer taking up the role of T until the deadline had passed :)
(23:15:35) AlexanderBahlo: I am not wanting to take over old boards financial report liabilities which lacks details
(23:15:50) KevinDawson: The Board at the time "holds" legal liability for the affairs of the Association - I don't know if we can enforce anything on members outside that allowed by the Constitution
(23:15:57) IanGrigg: well, as mentioned - the members take on the liabilities
(23:16:00) AlexanderBahlo: This remains liability of old board in my opinion
(23:16:25) IanGrigg: ah - legal liability not financial liability
(23:17:14) AlexanderBahlo: Hmm well carry on will clearify this later
(23:17:59) GuillaumeRomagny: AlexanderBahlo : if we elect a new board we (members) wipe them from liabilities (if I am correct)
(23:18:25) GuillaumeRomagny: I mean discharge from liability
(23:18:26) AlexanderBahlo: Not necessarily. At leasr not in germany.
(23:18:29) IanGrigg: no, they are liable for their actions, they are just not liable for things that happen in the new board's time
(23:18:47) KevinDawson: A previous Board may or may not retain liability for their actions (not sure), but a new Board would take on the responsibility.
(23:18:50) AlexanderBahlo: This is the special expression i mentionef before
(23:19:25) AlexanderBahlo: Members have to rule the old boards financial clearanxe befire
(23:19:42) AlexanderBahlo: Here we reject it already.
(23:19:55) GuillaumeRomagny: (Sorry I am dealing with French regulation, so I might be wrong)
(23:20:03) PiersLauder: I withdraw my proposed motion. Note that we are arguing over details here - the OFT requirements are met by the first motion.
(23:20:12) AlexanderBahlo: Sorry for bad writing from my mobile...
(23:21:02) BrianMcCullough: AlexanderBahlo: I'm impressed.  Here I am using two hands on a keyboard!
(23:21:36) MarioLipinski: I think it is clear what the membership wants, so can we move on and vote on it, not sure which motion is currently still on the table, but don't wnat to propose another one....
(23:21:37) AlexanderBahlo: Ok carry on
(23:22:00) BennyBaumann: PiersLauder: Could you list the still active motions?
(23:22:09) TomasTrnka: I see one motion by Ulrich and one by Guillaume
(23:22:17) PiersLauder: Also one by IanGrigg
(23:22:42) TomasTrnka: PiersLauder: That one was not seconded AFAICS
(23:22:48) IanGrigg: There are practical issues.  Jeffery as Treasurer hit trouble in the last few months to do with family stuff … and might not be able to do much more.
(23:23:17) BrianMcCullough: How about Benny, Wytze and Mario?
(23:23:23) IanGrigg: Ideally we might want to hand the problem over to a new Treasurer but I wouldn't want to scare the person away with such  big task.
(23:23:33) GuillaumeRomagny: IanGrigg : yes, we have to deal with Jeffery issue
(23:23:59) WytzevanderRaay: IanGrigg: if that's the case, the new Treasurer will be in trouble anyway, no matter what the members ask, he/she will be unable to pick up his/her task :-(
(23:24:00) IanGrigg: This design of having the board replaced *and* voting on the financial report at the same time has some unfortunate consequences :)
(23:24:22) u60: Tomas -> (23:10:05) u60: my motion was GR's motion with the asap -> 6 weeks correction
(23:24:52) BrianMcCullough: I don't know how practical it might be, but I could drive up to Jeffery and then find a Post Office, if needed.
(23:25:11) GuillaumeRomagny: UlrichSchroeter : Ulrich, mine or Ian motions are going the same way
(23:25:19) TomasTrnka: UlrichSchroeter: yes, but GR did not retract his proposal in favour of yours
(23:25:30) GuillaumeRomagny: I retract my motion then
(23:25:58) u60: ok, so we have 2 motions left ..
(23:26:02) WernerDworak: Brian, do you live near Jeff?
(23:27:04) BrianMcCullough: In Western North American terms, yes.  About 5 hours.
(23:27:20) WernerDworak: Brian, ok
(23:27:25) WernerDworak: Thank you
(23:27:26) BennyBaumann: Was IanGrigg seconded?
(23:27:47) WernerDworak: AFAIk Ian was not seconded
(23:27:49) IanGrigg: I don't think so
(23:27:54) PiersLauder: I second Ian's motion
(23:27:54) IanGrigg: perhaps we can break it down
(23:27:58) GuillaumeRomagny: Ulrich and Ian motions are very close... only we need to put a dead line like "if not a SGM will be called on Feb 2013"
(23:27:58) TomasTrnka: BennyBaumann: not yet. I'd second it but that would only add to the confusion
(23:28:00) AlexanderBahlo: Ian second
(23:28:08) TomasTrnka: Ah, there it comes :)
(23:28:22) BennyBaumann: ... :(
(23:28:46) BennyBaumann: We had just a situation where only one was left ...
(23:28:49) u60: can we plz compare both ..  I've just scrolled back and copied my motion presented
(23:28:52) MarioLipinski: maybe we can first vote on ian's and then add a second motion: that the updated report is delivered within 6 weeks?
(23:29:08) IanGrigg: nod.
(23:29:17) KevinDawson: Mario: better off as an amendment to the first motion
(23:29:21) GuillaumeRomagny:  MarioLipinski : ok
(23:29:36) BenediktHeintel: PiersLauder, please vote on both if no one abstains from his motion
(23:29:38) BennyBaumann: Please decide on one motion.
(23:30:10) u60: (23:07:54) u60: That the members reject the Financial Report as presented but hold liability on the financial issues, and request the current President and Treasurer & incoming treasurer to present a more complete report within the next 6 weeks
(23:30:19) u60: what was Ian's ?
(23:30:29) TomasTrnka: That, the members reject the Financial Report and request that the Board prepare it to the standard of the previous year, and that they request the assistance of retiring members in doing so
(23:30:35) PiersLauder: ian's was "That, the members reject the Financial Report and request that the Board prepare it to the standard of the previous year, and that they request the assistance of retiring members in doing so"
(23:30:57) GuillaumeRomagny: Both are almost the same
(23:31:24) GuillaumeRomagny: I second Mario : let's vote for Ian motion 
(23:31:30) u60: so I abstain from u60 motion
(23:31:35) GuillaumeRomagny: then let's vote for a deadline motion
(23:31:35) TomasTrnka: fine
(23:31:45) PiersLauder: Ok, let's vot on Ian's motion
(23:31:52) VoteBot: TomasTrnka has started a vote on: That, the members reject the Financial Report and request that the Board prepare it to the standard of the previous year, and that they request the assistance of retiring members in doing so
(23:31:52) ***VoteBot please vote on: That, the members reject the Financial Report and request that the Board prepare it to the standard of the previous year, and that they request the assistance of retiring members in doing so
(23:32:09) IanGrigg: the new board takes up responsibility to act, so somehow we want to have the new board in charge
(23:33:22) ***VoteBot Voting on "That, the members reject the Financial Report and request that the Board prepare it to the standard of the previous year, and that they request the assistance of retiring members in doing so" will end in 30 seconds!
(23:33:52) VoteBot hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Excess Flood).
(23:34:12) BennyBaumann: yeah!
(23:34:17) TomasTrnka: what the …?
(23:34:24) AlexanderPrinsier: ah that bug is still not resolved ;)
(23:34:34) MarioLipinski: [Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:30:34 GMT] INFO       [SENT]  PRIVMSG  #agm :ACTION has totaled the results for "That, the members reject the Financial Report and request that the Board prepare it to the standard of the previous year, and that they request the assistance of retiring members in doing so"
(23:34:34) MarioLipinski: [Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:30:34 GMT] INFO       [SENT]  PRIVMSG  #agm :ACTION ---        AYE:     17
(23:34:34) MarioLipinski: [Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:30:34 GMT] INFO       [SENT]  PRIVMSG  #agm :ACTION ---        NAYE:    1
(23:34:34) MarioLipinski: [Sun, 25 Nov 2012 22:30:34 GMT] INFO       [SENT]  PRIVMSG  #agm :ACTION ---        ABSTAIN: 3
(23:34:44) VoteBot [VoteBot@10.0.0.14] hat den Raum betreten.
(23:34:57) PiersLauder: The motion is carried
(23:35:23) BennyBaumann: Motion: ammend the previous motion to be carried out wthin 6 weeks
(23:35:31) BenediktHeintel: second
(23:35:37) u60: second
(23:35:38) MartinGummi: secound
(23:35:39) WernerDworak: second
(23:35:49) GuillaumeRomagny: Please include a deadline for an SGM
(23:35:57) AlexanderPrinsier: we can call for an SGM ourselves anytime
(23:36:03) GuillaumeRomagny: if 6 weeks if not reached
(23:36:07) BenediktHeintel: GuillaumeRomagny, we can call an SGM any time
(23:36:14) GuillaumeRomagny: (ok, just a safeguard)
(23:36:15) MarioLipinski: GuillaumeRomagny, for a SGM the procedure would be a member to call it and have it seconded by X other members.
(23:36:37) GuillaumeRomagny: Mario : We can decide now
(23:36:43) TomasTrnka: MarioLipinski: X = 5%
(23:36:45) KevinDawson: You're supposed to amend a motion *before* it's voted on (there is a procedure), so correctly, this is a new motion.
(23:37:21) MichaelTaenzer: KevinDawson: indeed, that was the point
(23:37:27) WernerDworak: Never mind, Kevin. Then it is a new motion#
(23:37:31) AlexanderPrinsier: can we vote on Benny's motion?
(23:37:31) MarioLipinski: 5% of the membership can request a SGM, and then the board MUST call it within a time.
(23:38:07) GuillaumeRomagny: anyway let's go
(23:38:36) PiersLauder: BennyBaumann: perhaps you could reword your motion to be complete new motion standing by itself?
(23:39:32) MarioLipinski: proposal: that the updated financial report is delivered within 6 weeks as requested.
(23:39:52) GuillaumeRomagny: seconded
(23:40:12) BennyBaumann: PiersLauder: Could you just word it the way required.
(23:40:13) PiersLauder: Benny: do you withdraw your motion in favour of Mario's?
(23:40:27) BennyBaumann: I retract mine
(23:40:39) VoteBot: TomasTrnka has started a vote on: "That the updated financial report is delivered within 6 weeks as requested."
(23:40:39) ***VoteBot please vote on: "That the updated financial report is delivered within 6 weeks as requested."
(23:42:09) ***VoteBot Voting on ""That the updated financial report is delivered within 6 weeks as requested."" will end in 30 seconds!
(23:43:07) ***VoteBot has totaled the results for ""That the updated financial report is delivered within 6 weeks as requested.""
(23:43:07) ***VoteBot ---        AYE:     18
(23:43:10) ***VoteBot ---        NAYE:    3
(23:43:10) ***VoteBot ---        ABSTAIN: 1
(23:43:20) PiersLauder: The motion is carried
(23:43:32) PiersLauder: Item 3.3 "Presentation of Team Reports"
(23:43:39) PiersLauder: Uli - are the team reports complete?
(23:43:56) TomasTrnka: https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/TeamReports/2012
(23:44:06) TomasTrnka: PiersLauder: According to the page they are
(23:44:47) u60: all marked green except Birdshack project .. so reasobable complete
(23:45:18) u60: Ian, plz fix ... set your name below the report and mark it green at the top :)
(23:45:26) PiersLauder: Good, I 'd like to note all the work done by the teams, and express our appreciation
(23:45:46) BenediktHeintel: Thank you for compiling the reports, good work!
(23:45:53) PiersLauder: anyone else like to add comments about the team reports?
(23:46:17) TomasTrnka: just the expected "thank you all a lot" :)
(23:46:42) JanDittberner: I would like to bring your attention to the last section of the infrastructure report ... what do you think about disabling old SVN accounts?
(23:46:55) GuillaumeRomagny: Yes thanks for all the work
(23:47:16) BenediktHeintel: JanDittberner, which SVN do you mean?
(23:47:24) JanDittberner: svn.cacert.org
(23:47:44) MarioLipinski: JanDittberner, imho this should be fine. They can be reactived anytime if they are needed.
(23:47:52) BenediktHeintel: agree
(23:48:00) BennyBaumann: JanDittberner: accounts no longer used should be deactivated; but pospone this for Q&A.
(23:48:13) u60: Jan: I propose to move on disabling old accounts. One who had access, and had no more after disabling old accounts can send an email to svn-admin and can be readded quickly :)
(23:48:48) GuillaumeRomagny: (you can disable my access)
(23:49:06) IanGrigg: UlrichSchroeter: done
(23:49:20) u60: @Ian  thnx :)
(23:49:32) PiersLauder: Ok, moving on
(23:49:40) PiersLauder: Next, 3.4 "Presentation of Member Reports"
(23:49:52) u60: we have 2 :)
(23:50:04) u60: https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/MembersReports/2012
(23:50:05) TomasTrnka: https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/MembersReports/2012
(23:50:32) IanGrigg: Ah, super :)
(23:50:43) IanGrigg: concise!
(23:50:51) PiersLauder: Thanks to Benedikt and Jan :-)
(23:50:55) JanDittberner: :-)
(23:51:04) PiersLauder: Moving on
(23:51:21) PiersLauder: 3.5 "Secretary Annual Report"
(23:51:27) PiersLauder: Tomas?
(23:51:58) TomasTrnka: I'm not sure what is this supposed to be here…
(23:52:22) TomasTrnka: So the only report from my side is that there seems to be a significant loss of interest in the Association
(23:52:30) BenediktHeintel: where is your preparation Tomas?
(23:53:01) TomasTrnka: Based on the fact that this year we have 21 memberhips expiring due to three years unpaid fees and only ~5 new members
(23:53:17) IanGrigg: TomasTrnka: is that a personal opinion or there are statistics to suggest that?
(23:53:25) IanGrigg: not that I mind either way :)
(23:53:30) TomasTrnka: See above
(23:53:33) WytzevanderRaay: How many (paying) members do we still have?
(23:53:37) IanGrigg: nod
(23:53:59) TomasTrnka: By the end of FY 2011/2012 it was 90
(23:54:07) TomasTrnka: Right now we're at 94
(23:54:20) IanGrigg: as a perverse comment, interest in the Association generally rises when there is a disaster … we haven't had a disaster for a few year :)
(23:54:21) WytzevanderRaay: That exceeds my expectations :-)
(23:54:39) TomasTrnka: But that is still with the 21 included
(23:54:46) AlexanderPrinsier: note membership fees are a significant part of our income
(23:54:57) BennyBaumann: Motion: Secretary should send out a stunning notice to everyone who has unpaid dues r dues to expire soon (once per year)
(23:55:34) TomasTrnka: Most of those people are ones known not to be interested in CAcert anymore
(23:56:06) MarioLipinski: Not sure whether I received a notice, but I guess I have not paid for the current calendar year.
(23:56:27) dirkastrath: let's talk about it in the next board-meeting(s) ... ;-)
(23:56:44) BenediktHeintel: agree!
(23:56:52) BennyBaumann: Amendment: stunning notice -> friendly payment reminder
(23:56:55) IanGrigg: one thing we would like to bring to the attention of the next board is the use of the members list.  In particular we would like the new board to resolve whether it is a discussion list, a registry of members, or both
(23:57:04) GuillaumeRomagny: dirkastrath : yes if anyone is left to come to the AGM
(23:57:12) BenediktHeintel: I have some proposals for the next board ... ;)
(23:57:14) IanGrigg: out of which, maybe some sense of association discussion might emerge
(23:57:24) AlexanderPrinsier: can we continue with the agenda?
(23:57:36) IanGrigg: nod, let's
(23:57:36) BrianMcCullough: Like Mario, I don't seem to have received any notice of my membership.
(23:58:23) BennyBaumann: (retracted)
(23:58:31) MarioLipinski: I can offer the board some support, as I handled these things earlier and may be able to give some hints to handle this efficiently.
(23:58:34) TomasTrnka: BrianMcCullough: that's correct as I haven't send out anything personal like that… Just the general call for payments with AGM call
(23:58:59) PiersLauder: next items are Special Resolutions and Ordinary Resolutions, of which none were proposed, so we can move on
(23:59:22) PiersLauder: Item 6 "Committee Elections"
(23:59:22) IanGrigg: (hmmm… maybe we need a Secretary's team … like for paypal and for the AU account.)
(00:00:11) PiersLauder: We have seven nominations accepted for seven committee positions, so I assume that means all seven are elected unopposed
(00:00:15) MarioLipinski: IanGrigg, let's call the team Committee...
(00:00:18) TomasTrnka: As there are exactly 7 candidates for 7 seats, all are taken to be elected according to Rule 16 (4)
(00:00:53) BennyBaumann: Good point, MarioLipinski .
(00:01:04) TomasTrnka: So the new Board is:
(00:01:09) TomasTrnka: Dirk Astrath 
(00:01:10) TomasTrnka: Michael Tänzer 
(00:01:12) TomasTrnka: Werner Dworak 
(00:01:13) TomasTrnka: Tomas Trnka 
(00:01:15) TomasTrnka: Kevin Dawson 
(00:01:16) TomasTrnka: Sven Andriske 
(00:01:18) TomasTrnka: Peter Yuill 
(00:01:33) BennyBaumann: Congratulations to everyone in the new Board!
(00:01:35) IanGrigg: Congratulations!
(00:01:42) WytzevanderRaay: Congratulations!
(00:01:42) BenediktHeintel: Good Luck!
(00:01:53) u60: do we have 3 AU residents ?
(00:01:57) GuillaumeRomagny: Welcome to our new Board! Cheers!
(00:02:00) MichaelTaenzer: thanks, and I hope the next AGM will be better prepared
(00:02:02) PiersLauder: No voting is necessary, and yes we have 3 AU members
(00:02:15) TomasTrnka: We do have 3 AUs this time, so no subcommittee magic necessary
(00:02:17) u60: (just to document this ,-) ...)
(00:02:37) u60: welcome our new board
(00:02:41) TomasTrnka: See https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/Next for details
(00:02:52) PiersLauder: Welcome to the new committee members
(00:03:06) KevinDawson: And thanks to the retiring members./
(00:03:07) u60: the meeting transcript is that counts ,-)
(00:03:18) MichaelTaenzer: new commitee: please stay till after the meeting
(00:03:30) BrianMcCullough: I noticed in the minutes that there was no mention of the date of the next AGM.  Do we want to talk about that?
(00:03:52) WernerDworak: Remind, Sven is not there
(00:03:56) PiersLauder: That brings us to the end of the agenda items, but I propose to open the meeting for general discussions at this point
(00:04:05) IanGrigg: BrianMcCullough: typically we set the date of the next AGM when we know whether the finance report is done
(00:04:06) MichaelTaenzer: Yes thanks to our fellow previous board members
(00:04:20) IanGrigg: that's historical pattern - new committee of course can decide on that
(00:04:38) GuillaumeRomagny: MichaelTaenzer : seconded :)
(00:04:43) PiersLauder: perhaps we can discuss how we are going to handle the upgrading of the financial report before the new committee starts work
(00:04:45) IanGrigg: and typically it is either last week in November (early result) or last week in January (late result)
(00:05:10) MarcusMaengel: IAn last week in JAnuary is to late anyway
(00:05:58) MarioLipinski: Maybe moving it closer to the end of financial year would make sense, so more up to date reports are presented?
(00:06:27) BennyBaumann: I suggest the Board should give a drink (free choice below membership dues) to all members if the financial report for next year is later or incomplete or late again. ;-)
(00:06:38) MichaelTaenzer: MarioLipinski: generally: ACK but financial report is the essential issue
(00:07:17) MarioLipinski: Then we would discuss how this could be solved. We have problems with our finances year after year....
(00:07:21) IanGrigg: Just as a historical comment again - every year we have had a lot of trouble with the financial report
(00:07:36) WytzevanderRaay: In previous years, the (lacking) access to (Australian) bank statements was the limiting factor for the financial report -- is that still a problem??
(00:07:44) IanGrigg: one thing we have tried to do is to set up a system online so the transactions can be entered into so that many people can see what is going on
(00:07:47) BenediktHeintel: Let's talk about this in the nextt Committe Meeting
(00:08:20) IanGrigg: WytzevanderRaay:  no, this problem we have solved.  We now have a team of two people who can access the AU major account at Westpac on demand / instructions.  That team is Kevin and myself.
(00:08:56) IanGrigg: But, we only act on instructions from the Treasurer, or equivalent board motion.  We're not a resource for doing the financial report.
(00:09:16) u60: one question to AlexanderPrinsier ... didn't you installed a Sqlledger or something doing this financial stuff ?!?
(00:09:28) AlexanderPrinsier: yes, but we never started using it
(00:09:43) AlexanderPrinsier: it stils had to be customized for cacert, and i never finished that part...
(00:09:52) MarioLipinski: imho sqlledger might be too complicated for someone w/o much experience in accounting.
(00:09:52) u60: hmm ... so you made the reports manualy ?!?
(00:10:04) AlexanderPrinsier: i used gnucash as an accounting program
(00:10:13) AlexanderPrinsier: but it's a local program, not easy to work on with multiple people
(00:10:25) AlexanderPrinsier: and yes, doing the financial report requires some accounting knowledge, irrespective of the tool
(00:10:33) MarioLipinski: a system just listing incomes and expenses and categorizing each might be more appropriate for CAcert.
(00:11:09) AlexanderPrinsier: maybe, but it gives far less insight than a double-entry system
(00:11:28) AlexanderPrinsier: could be a solution since it's easier, so maybe that helps with solving some recurring financial report issue :)
(00:11:37) u60: the sqlledger is still running ?!?
(00:11:42) IanGrigg: whatever we do, it has to work with multiple people.  Our big problem is always having someone drop out at a critical moment.  We all have "the lives of others" to live
(00:11:48) GuillaumeRomagny: Alex : double entry for a small association is a pain, believe me I am Treasurer
(00:11:50) IanGrigg: Not sure how that translates into German :)
(00:12:14) AlexanderPrinsier: GuillaumeRomagny: well i did it two years, each time in around 8 hours of time
(00:12:25) TomasTrnka: UlrichSchroeter: I vaguely remember some discussion of the machine getting shut down at some point in the past year
(00:12:39) MarioLipinski: I think it is still running.
(00:12:41) IanGrigg: The Lives of Others ==> "Das Leben der Anderen"
(00:12:44) AlexanderPrinsier: anyway, my battery is dying on me right now... assuming the meeting is closed :)
(00:12:49) PiersLauder: Just a simple system on the web showing items of income and expenditure as they happen would make it easier for everyone to keep track
(00:12:55) BennyBaumann: IanGrigg: That's "Doppelte Buchführung"
(00:13:46) PiersLauder: i'd especially like an annual chart of membership / fees, (something I asked Jeffrey for ages ago, but which was never delivered)
(00:15:24) u60: for the 2011-2012 finance report - do we have the transactions of the AU bank accounts ?
(00:15:37) u60: eg by Kevin ?!?
(00:15:53) u60: before delivering to Jeff  ?!?
(00:15:55) IanGrigg: the AU Westpac transactions can be made available, I think Kevin has them all recorded
(00:15:58) KevinDawson: Yes, I have every statement since the accounts were opened.
(00:16:24) PatrickPointu: sorry blue screen of death... 
(00:16:30) BenediktHeintel: I need to leave, thank you for the AGM, see you on the next Committee Meeting
(00:16:32) MichaelTaenzer: ok as not all new board members are present I will write an emai with a doodle when to do a meeting
(00:16:35) u60: whats with the paypal account, do we have the transactions  for 2011-2012 ?
(00:17:08) TomasTrnka: UlrichSchroeter: Incoming payments to PayPal are logged in cacert-inc archives
(00:17:11) MichaelTaenzer: PiersLauder: close the meeting?
(00:17:33) u60: so the 2011-2012 can be recovered from these transactions, right ?
(00:17:35) BrianMcCullough: I was wondering whether I should propose a motion to adjourn, or if this was still AGM.
(00:17:38) IanGrigg: Paypal account - there is uncertainty about who is managing it - either no-one or many :) - last board motioned that we set up a team for managing the Paypal account to support the Treasurer, in the same way as Kevin+Iang do for the AU account.
(00:17:50) PiersLauder: Indeed, it's getting late.
(00:17:53) JanDittberner: I have to leave too ... busy week ahead
(00:18:05) PiersLauder: I'd like now to close this AGM
(00:18:08) IanGrigg: this is open discussion - but it is still the AGM.  However if people need to leave, there is no more "BUSINESS" 
(00:18:17) IanGrigg: ok, seconded :)
(00:18:20) JanDittberner hat den Raum verlassen.
(00:18:24) PiersLauder: Thanks everyone for attending.
(00:18:40) WytzevanderRaay: Bye everyone, it's getting too late here too ...
(00:18:43) dirkastrath heißt jetzt dirk
(00:18:47) BennyBaumann: bye.
(00:18:48) AlexanderBahlo: Thanks Piers and board
(00:18:57) AlexanderBahlo: Bye all
(00:19:01) WytzevanderRaay hat den Raum verlassen.
(00:19:01) BrianMcCullough: Thank you all for another interesting year.
(00:19:06) PiersLauder: Bye all
(00:19:11) PatrickPointu heißt jetzt PatrickP
(00:19:19) BennyBaumann: Good luck to the new board. :P
(00:19:25) AlexanderBahlo hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: user has left).
(00:19:26) GuillaumeRomagny heißt jetzt GolfRomeo
(00:19:36) Sie heißen jetzt u60
(00:19:37) BennyBaumann heißt jetzt BenBE
(00:19:46) BenediktHeintel hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Verlassend).
(00:19:48) PiersLauder hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Ex-Chat).
(00:20:14) TomasTrnka: Fellow new boardmembers: Do you still want to discuss something here? Or do we leave that to e-mail?
(00:20:45) KevinDawson: Prefer to leave it to email - I also have a bucketload of things to do today.
(00:20:51) MichaelTaenzer: TomasTrnka: I think email will do
(00:20:52) WernerDworak: I suggest email, since Sven is missing anyway
(00:21:18) TomasTrnka: ok, good bye then
(00:21:39) ReinhardMutz: bye
(00:21:44) ReinhardMutz hat den Raum verlassen (Konversation terminated!).
(00:21:58) IanGrigg: note to sysadms - there is the checklist somewhere
(00:22:21) TomasTrnka: https://wiki.cacert.org/AGM/NewBoardCheckList
(00:23:12) IanGrigg: http://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee#Handover_Checklist
(00:23:41) BrianMcCullough: 'Night all.  Not so late here ( 18:23 ) but I have been trying to multi-task with some work, so I will concentrate on that now.
(00:23:49) MarioLipinski: If you need anything regarding the Paypal account: pass a board motion and I should be able to execute.
(00:24:15) BrianMcCullough hat den Raum verlassen.
(00:24:16) IanGrigg: TomasTrnka your link is better
(00:25:00) TomasTrnka: Good to know there are two slightly diverging copies of this…
(00:25:41) TomasTrnka hat den Raum verlassen (quit: ).
(00:26:05) VoteBot hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Remote host closed the connection).
(00:26:09) u60: so to incorporate both into one, and include() the combined one under  http://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee#Handover_Checklist  ,-)
(00:30:31) KevinDawson: I need to head off - bye all.
(00:31:19) alex-uk hat den Raum verlassen.
(00:31:38) KevinDawson hat den Raum verlassen.
(00:34:17) WernerDworak hat den Raum verlassen.
(00:35:11) MarioLipinski: The Voting system should be updated
(00:36:03) u60: https://svn.cacert.org/CAcert/Software/votebot/    :)
(00:36:41) MarioLipinski: I was referring to community.cacert.org/board/
(00:37:16) u60: ah, this one ...  should be on the boards checklist ,-)
(00:37:23) MarioLipinski: it is
(00:37:47) MarioLipinski: webmail-admin: update board voting system - /var/www/board/database.sqlite - voters and email table. 
(00:38:11) MarioLipinski: VoteBot does not know anything regarding persmissions.
(00:38:15) u60: for those who have console access :D