Conversation with #sgm at 03.04.2011 20:49:27 on u60@irc.cacert.org (irc) (20:49:34) MarioLipinski heißt jetzt law (20:52:57) law heißt jetzt MarioLipinski (20:56:33) VoteBot: MarioLipinski has started a vote on: Test Vote (20:56:33) ***VoteBot please vote on: Test Vote (20:56:48) Guy heißt jetzt GuyScharinger (20:56:51) Sie heißen jetzt UlrichSchroeter (20:58:01) ***VoteBot Voting on "Test Vote" will end in 30 seconds! (20:58:30) GuillaumeRomagny: Proxy doesn't work (20:58:30) #SGM: Modus (+vvv GuillaumeRomagny GuyScharinger JSFrederick) von MarioLipinski (20:58:30) #SGM: Modus (+v UlrichSchroeter) von MarioLipinski (20:58:37) ***VoteBot has totaled the results for "Test Vote" (20:58:37) ***VoteBot --- AYE: 4 (20:58:39) ***VoteBot --- NAYE: 2 (20:58:39) ***VoteBot --- ABSTAIN: 0 (20:59:01) VoteBot: aphexer has started a vote on: test2 (20:59:01) ***VoteBot please vote on: test2 (20:59:05) MichaelTaenzer: GuillaumeRomagny: Maybe without the colon? (20:59:40) GuillaumeRomagny: Michael : it was working last time (20:59:48) ***VoteBot aphexer has canceled the vote on: test2 (20:59:57) MarioLipinski: GuillaumeRomagny: remove the space before the colon (21:02:36) MarioLipinski heißt jetzt law (21:02:42) GuillaumeRomagny: MarioLipinski: unless the votebot soft has been changed (21:02:56) GuillaumeRomagny: the typo was working for the AGM (21:03:07) law: GuillaumeRomagny: Votebot has been changed a lot (21:03:39) VoteBot: law has started a vote on: test (21:03:39) ***VoteBot please vote on: test (21:03:39) GuillaumeRomagny: law : ok (21:04:12) GuillaumeRomagny: ok (21:04:15) GuillaumeRomagny: thanks (21:05:08) ***VoteBot Voting on "test" will end in 30 seconds! (21:05:43) BenBE [BenBE@pD9E1D467.dip.t-dialin.net] hat den Raum betreten. (21:05:45) ***VoteBot has totaled the results for "test" (21:05:45) ***VoteBot --- AYE: 4 (21:05:47) ***VoteBot --- NAYE: 0 (21:05:47) ***VoteBot --- ABSTAIN: 0 (21:05:52) #SGM: Modus (+o aphexer) von law (21:09:24) u60: note: to be accepted as Inc members you have to change your nicks to your realname GivennameLastname (21:09:54) u60: BenBE MOH (21:11:47) BenBE hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds). (21:22:53) LH [Q@k30092.upc-k.chello.nl] hat den Raum betreten. (21:23:29) aphexer heißt jetzt AlexanderPrinsier (21:33:06) LH hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Leaving.). (21:34:44) LH [LambertHof@k30092.upc-k.chello.nl] hat den Raum betreten. (21:41:56) BenBE [BenBE@89.204.153.199] hat den Raum betreten. (21:42:47) doris [doris@85-127-137-28.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] hat den Raum betreten. (21:44:17) BenBE_ [BenBE@89.204.153.199] hat den Raum betreten. (21:53:39) wytze [wytze@deboca.xs4all.nl] hat den Raum betreten. (21:54:55) wytze heißt jetzt WytzevanderRaay (21:55:05) MOH heißt jetzt MarcOliverHofmann (21:55:06) BenBE heißt jetzt BennyBaumann (21:55:18) #SGM: Modus (+vvv BennyBaumann MarcOliverHofmann WytzevanderRaay) von law (21:55:28) law heißt jetzt MarioLipinski (21:56:13) PeterYuill [PeterYuill@121.91.122.93] hat den Raum betreten. (21:59:44) TomasTrnka [tootea@188.120.217.176] hat den Raum betreten. (21:59:58) doris heißt jetzt DorisSteinbichler (22:00:06) MarioLipinski heißt jetzt law (22:01:07) FrancoisMarier [francois@leibniz.catalyst.net.nz] hat den Raum betreten. (22:01:31) #SGM: Modus (+vvv DorisSteinbichler FrancoisMarier PeterYuill) von law (22:01:31) #SGM: Modus (+v TomasTrnka) von law (22:02:41) LH: Hi all (22:02:46) AlexanderPrinsier: hi (22:02:59) TomasTrnka: Hello (22:03:09) WytzevanderRaay: Hi (22:03:11) MarcOliverHofmann: Hi (22:03:14) law: Please change you nickname to FirstnameLastname if you are an association member. And join #vote for voting. (22:03:17) law: hi (22:03:23) BennyBaumann: hi (22:03:25) law heißt jetzt MarioLipinski (22:03:28) JanDittberner: hi (22:03:35) GuillaumeRomagny: Hello all (22:03:36) u60: hi (22:03:42) MichaelTaenzer: hi (22:05:19) DorisSteinbichler: hi (22:05:32) GuyScharinger: Good morning has all the Assembly (22:05:52) LH: This meeting was to start at 20.00 UTC, that is about now, right? (22:06:00) MarioLipinski: yes. (22:06:02) BennyBaumann hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: leaving). (22:06:03) BenBE_ hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: leaving). (22:06:03) GuillaumeRomagny: yes (22:06:14) #SGM: Modus (+o LH) von MarioLipinski (22:06:15) LH: (I always get confused with these time zones) (22:06:21) ***FrancoisMarier is glad he double-checked the meeting time after daylight savings kicked in (22:06:28) ***MarioLipinski was one hour early (22:07:00) u60: :( (22:07:07) LH: Ok, thank you all for attending, and I hereby open this Special General Meeting (22:07:10) ***MichaelTaenzer was also 1 hr early (22:07:19) u60: not on sgm/next and only in email somewhere :& (22:07:50) LH: On the agenda we have a single item (22:08:09) LH: a change to the association, proposed by Daniel Black (22:08:24) LH: I do not see Daniel present here (22:08:31) AlexanderPrinsier: For reference: http://wiki.cacert.org/SGM/Next (22:09:04) LH: MarioLipinski: has Daniel let you know if he would attend? (22:09:18) MarioLipinski: LH: he casted an early vote. unlikely so (22:09:40) LH: Mario: has he appointed someone to explain his proposal? (22:09:50) MarioLipinski: not that I am aware about (22:10:07) NiksTafelrunde_ [nik@merlin.naturalnet.de] hat den Raum betreten. (22:10:11) GuillaumeRomagny: MarioLipinski: yes I got the copy of the early vote (22:10:15) LH: Members: is there anyone here that was appointed by Daniel to speak on his behalf? (22:10:31) MarioLipinski: may I first announce the proxies? (22:10:55) MarioLipinski: Ulrich Schröter (22:10:56) MarioLipinski: * Jeffery Frederick (22:10:56) MarioLipinski: Michael Tänzer (22:10:56) MarioLipinski: * Markus Mängel (22:10:56) MarioLipinski: * Fabian Knopf (22:10:57) MarioLipinski: (22:10:58) MarioLipinski: Guillaume Romagny (22:11:00) MarioLipinski: * Gary Lee Adams (Daniel Black secondary) (22:11:04) MarioLipinski: * John Cagnol (22:11:06) MarioLipinski: Dirk Astrath (22:11:08) MarioLipinski: * Dominik George (22:12:04) LH: Mario: yes thank you, (22:12:04) LH: I just wanted to know, before we move to the vote, if there is someone here to explain Dan's proposal (22:12:35) LH: Do we need to test the votebot before continuing? (22:12:42) u60: yes (22:12:56) AlexanderPrinsier: discussion about the proposal should have happened anyway before the meeting; we should assume the proposal is clear enough to vote on it (22:13:17) u60: especialy how proxy vote works (22:13:24) LH: Mario: who can operate votebot? (22:13:35) MarioLipinski: yes (22:13:49) AlexanderPrinsier: He means: himself ;) (22:14:19) VoteBot: MarioLipinski has started a vote on: Testvote for SGM (22:14:19) ***VoteBot please vote on: Testvote for SGM (22:14:24) LH: Mario: can you please initiate a test vote, (22:14:33) LH: and explain how the proxy voing works? (22:14:45) MarioLipinski: Voting is done in #vote (22:15:08) MarioLipinski: for proxy voting: PROXY FirstnameLastname: aye/naye/abstain (22:15:24) TomasTrnka: MarioLipinski: Apparently it's better without the colon (22:15:47) ***VoteBot Voting on "Testvote for SGM" will end in 30 seconds! (22:16:00) LH: Ulrich, have you tested proxy now? (22:16:23) ***VoteBot has totaled the results for "Testvote for SGM" (22:16:23) ***VoteBot --- AYE: 14 (22:16:25) ***VoteBot --- NAYE: 3 (22:16:25) ***VoteBot --- ABSTAIN: 4 (22:16:37) MarioLipinski: TomasTrnka: thx, must have changed... (22:16:59) LH: Mario: how many votes do we expect? (22:17:00) WytzevanderRaay: It seems that the Votebot has no problem whatsoever with proxy votes being cast for fake member names -- is there some manual checking in place (22:17:18) LH: We had one member voting for "bingo", is that also counted? (22:17:27) AlexanderPrinsier: i did that, as a test; it should be counted (22:17:37) AlexanderPrinsier: manual checking: yes by me; and others are welcome too (22:17:48) GuillaumeRomagny: I transformed it into Abstain :) (22:17:58) LH: Ok, are there any questions on the voting process? (22:18:12) TomasTrnka: LH: Abstains don' (22:18:19) TomasTrnka: don't count, true? (22:18:23) LH: Yes (22:19:07) JanDittberner: aye means coop, naye means stay inc, right? (22:19:17) LH: For the current proposal we need 75% aye to pass, that is 75% of aye's and naye's. Number of abstains do not count (22:19:35) LH: (can anyone verify that?) (22:20:11) LH: Now, let's continue with the SGM (22:20:14) LH: This meeting has been called to vote on a proposal by Daniel Black, to Transfer to Co-operative Limited. (22:20:14) LH: Details of his plan are available on https://lists.cacert.org/wws/arc/cacert-members/2010-09/msg00022.html (22:20:25) LH: Before starting the vote I'd like to inform you that this proposal has already been discussed by the previous board, together with an alternative proposal by Mark Lipscombe. (22:20:25) LH: This was initiated in the board meeting of August 1st, 2010, see http://wiki.cacert.org/Brain/CAcertInc/Committee/MeetingAgendasAndMinutes/20100801 (22:20:35) LH: One of the drivers was the need for 3 Australian board members in the new OFT rules. The board in the end looked for other ways, and decided to spend some money on recruiting more Australian members. This was by far cheaper than the other two proposals, especially if we consider plans of moving CAcert to another country (Europe) (22:20:43) LH: Another big issue is the fact that when we accept this proposal, we need to bring all other rules in line with the new OFT rules, something that will cost a lot of effort, effort that cannot be spent on other CAcert tasks. (22:21:12) LH: However, in the end it's not the board, but the members that have a final say (22:21:47) LH: So I would like to start the vote on the proposal by Daniel (22:22:14) LH: Are there any remaining questions before we start the voting? (22:22:54) WytzevanderRaay: Could you summarize what the objections of the current board are against the Co-op proposal? (22:23:01) TomasTrnka: LH: No questions, 75% verified according to Rules 32 (a) (22:23:43) MichaelTaenzer: WytzevanderRaay: already done, see above (22:24:01) LH: Wytze: we see it as more expensive, a lot of work to change, and it's a bigger liability for board members (so we might need additional insurance) (22:24:25) GuillaumeRomagny: The nice part with the coop, we would have a clear overview of the association. We don't have currently. (22:24:46) TomasTrnka: GuillaumeRomagny: Can you elaborate a bit? (22:25:02) TomasTrnka: GuillaumeRomagny: You mean the audit requirements? (22:25:06) GuillaumeRomagny: We still don't have the account balance as of now (22:25:12) GuillaumeRomagny: Yes audit required (22:25:27) MarioLipinski: GuillaumeRomagny: that would it just make worse in our current situation. (22:25:45) GuillaumeRomagny: MarioLipinski: whatever the situation is a nightmare (22:26:02) GuillaumeRomagny: Something has to change (22:26:19) MarioLipinski: It is, but this imho is the fault of Board members leaving without handover. (22:26:25) GuillaumeRomagny: Even if the change is painful and costy (22:26:36) GuillaumeRomagny: (costly) (22:26:52) GuillaumeRomagny: MarioLipinski: ok if you say (22:26:54) AlexanderPrinsier: GuillaumeRomagny: please explain how a coop makes access to the bank account easier in case of no handover between board members (22:26:56) MarioLipinski: GuillaumeRomagny: the new proposal would not give us access to oura ccounts. (22:27:07) LH: We need better governance regarding bank access, but that is independant of type of organisation (22:27:13) AlexanderPrinsier: LH: exactly (22:27:21) GuillaumeRomagny: MarioLipinski: but Board members have left others resigned (22:27:30) LH: so it does not change a thing, changing to a coop will not help (22:27:48) MarioLipinski: GuillaumeRomagny: they are required to do a handover by law. (22:27:52) GuillaumeRomagny: The nice part is we will pay for an audit before turning into a cooperative so the world will have a nice overview of the situation (22:28:14) GuillaumeRomagny: We start from day 1 (22:28:28) MarioLipinski: GuillaumeRomagny: so what are the exact costs? One time and yearly? (22:28:30) LH: Guillaume: no, the proposal requires us to request a change within two weeks after the motion has been accepted (22:28:55) LH: Estimated costs were between 1500 and 3000 / year (22:29:05) GuillaumeRomagny: MarioLipinski: Daniel said around 6000 AUD for the audit (22:29:35) MarioLipinski: So that is more than we pay for hosting.... (22:29:36) GuillaumeRomagny: Better to have yearly audit to get large funding !!! (22:29:43) LH: Guillaume: this would NOT be a CAcert audit (needed for us to get in browsers) but an auidit of CAcert Inc. (22:29:49) MichaelTaenzer: UlrichSchroeter said: clear no go (22:30:13) LH: so we would pay a lot, and gain nothing (22:30:33) GuillaumeRomagny: We need to have a yearly audit of the association or cooperative to get larger funding to do the Audit (browsers) process (22:30:35) BennyBaumann [BenBE@89.204.153.163] hat den Raum betreten. (22:30:50) #SGM: Modus (+v BennyBaumann) von MarioLipinski (22:31:08) AlexanderPrinsier: shall we move on to the voting? (22:31:11) GuillaumeRomagny: We didn't get any large donation since 2009 (22:31:17) GuillaumeRomagny: We have to move (22:31:26) TomasTrnka: GuillaumeRomagny: Yes, but that's no reason to go coop… We can as well start auditing the Association (22:31:28) MarioLipinski: GuillaumeRomagny: define large (22:31:33) u60: not in the current situation (22:31:47) LH: Guilaume: I agree we need more money, but changing to a coop will not do that (22:31:58) GuillaumeRomagny: It is around 2 years we don't have a clear view of the association (22:31:58) WytzevanderRaay: Unfortunately I don't know about financial auditor requirements in Australia, but from a Dutch point of view, 6000 AUD for a financial audit of a tiny organisation like CAcert sounds quite excessive -- unless the finances really are in a mess (22:32:01) u60: audit funding is one of the projects on the Audit to go list (22:32:32) AlexanderPrinsier: shall we move on to the voting? (22:32:46) BennyBaumann: I'm strongly for starting the Audit since that's what many people I know are expecting CAcert to do; to get into the browsers. (22:32:51) GuillaumeRomagny: WytzevanderRaay: Maybe less than 6000 AUD, it was a max fee estimation by Daniel (22:32:56) LH: Yes, are there any questions or remarks? (22:33:15) TomasTrnka: BennyBaumann: Please, don't mix the Audit with this financial audit (22:33:18) LH: Benny: the audit we're discussing has nothing to do with the audit that's needed to get in the browsers (22:33:27) MichaelTaenzer: BennyBaumann: (22:29:39) LH: Guillaume: this would NOT be a CAcert audit (needed for us to get in browsers) but an auidit of CAcert Inc. (22:33:43) AlexanderPrinsier: financial audit != operational audit (22:33:59) GuillaumeRomagny: AlexanderPrinsier: pretty right ! (22:34:07) LH: If there are no further questions, I'd like to open the voting (22:34:18) TomasTrnka: LH: go for it (22:34:19) LH: Mario, can you start the voting? (22:34:27) VoteBot: MarioLipinski has started a vote on: Accept proposal by Daniel Black, to Transfer to Co-operative Limited. (22:34:27) ***VoteBot please vote on: Accept proposal by Daniel Black, to Transfer to Co-operative Limited. (22:35:33) nb heißt jetzt NickBebout (22:35:50) #SGM: Modus (+v NickBebout) von MarioLipinski (22:35:55) ***VoteBot Voting on "Accept proposal by Daniel Black, to Transfer to Co-operative Limited." will end in 30 seconds! (22:36:07) BennyBaumann hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds). (22:36:31) ***VoteBot has totaled the results for "Accept proposal by Daniel Black, to Transfer to Co-operative Limited." (22:36:31) ***VoteBot --- AYE: 6 (22:36:31) BenBE [BenBE@89.204.153.163] hat den Raum betreten. (22:36:33) ***VoteBot --- NAYE: 16 (22:36:33) ***VoteBot --- ABSTAIN: 1 (22:36:56) LH: Ok, the votes are counted (22:36:58) dirk [5d8353c8@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] hat den Raum betreten. (22:37:14) LH: We have a total of 22 votes, with 6 aye (22:37:19) LH heißt jetzt LambertHofstra (22:37:26) dirk heißt jetzt DirkAstrath (22:37:38) LambertHofstra: Therefore the proposal has not gained enough voted, and is not accepted (22:37:40) TomasTrnka: LH: There's probably some confusion about Nick's vote, but it wouldn't change anything (22:37:42) BenBE heißt jetzt BennyBaumann (22:37:47) NickBebout: TomasTrnka, its fine (22:38:17) TomasTrnka: NickBebout: oK then :-) (22:38:27) LambertHofstra: This was the only item for the SGM (22:38:30) DirkAstrath: sorry for being late ... (22:38:45) LambertHofstra: If there are no further questions I'd like to thank you for attending (22:38:56) TomasTrnka: DirkAstrath: You just missed the voting :-) (22:39:17) DirkAstrath: i know ... i thought, it was on 23:00 local time ... (22:39:26) DirkAstrath: but this info was wrong ... ;-( (22:39:29) LambertHofstra: I hereby close the meeting (22:39:29) BennyBaumann: DirkAstrath: me too. (22:39:34) LambertHofstra: Thanks all (22:39:43) DirkAstrath: my vote would have been naye ... domniks aye ... (22:39:44) MarioLipinski: Thank you Lambert. (22:39:46) FrancoisMarier: thanks LambertHofstra (22:40:03) DirkAstrath: (however: wouldn't have something changed) (22:40:14) DorisSteinbichler: good night to all (22:40:27) NickBebout: does anyone want a cloak on here so it doesn't show your IP address? (22:40:31) NickBebout: I can set one upon request (22:41:00) TomasTrnka: Good night and bye all (22:41:31) TomasTrnka hat den Raum verlassen (Konversation terminated!). (22:41:32) PeterYuill hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Leaving). (22:42:57) BennyBaumann hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Ping timeout: 180 seconds). (22:43:04) MichaelTaenzer heißt jetzt NEOatNHNG (22:43:17) Sie heißen jetzt u60 (22:43:22) AlexanderPrinsier heißt jetzt aphexer (22:43:25) MarcOliverHofmann heißt jetzt MOH (22:43:41) NEOatNHNG heißt jetzt Guest28 (22:44:04) Guest28 hat den Raum verlassen (quit: Quit: Leaving.). (22:44:17) FrancoisMarier hat den Raum verlassen. (22:44:25) MOH hat den Raum verlassen. (22:44:46) NickBebout heißt jetzt nb (22:46:14) GuillaumeRomagny heißt jetzt GolfRomeo (22:48:07) KurtAlbershardt [Adium@c-68-35-16-103.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] hat den Raum betreten. (22:51:30) KurtAlbershardt hat den Raum verlassen. (22:53:27) JanDittberner hat den Raum verlassen. (22:55:23) DirkAstrath heißt jetzt dirk (22:56:22) WytzevanderRaay hat den Raum verlassen. (22:56:33) BenBE [BenBE@89.204.137.232] hat den Raum betreten. (23:05:24) GuyScharinger hat den Raum verlassen.